Elitism At Its Finest

I decided to continue the previous debate "They Still Don't Get It" October 7, 2005, here so that you can see for yourself the level of intelligence that we must confront on a daily basis.

The following is the response to my response.

"Noing said...

You really haven't addressed my point about the Mark Chapman analogy, and I really don't think much of your response which sounded like you blindly regurgitated one of Fox News' weaker news reports.

I'm loth to respond to you at all as you're clearly one of the flag-waving patriots who believes everything Dubya's speechwriters feed you, so I suspect I'm wasting my time, but however...

(a) If you're genuinely concerned about 9/11, or preventing another similar attack, presumably you'd have an interest in seeing Al Qaeda weakened.Time and time again, Bush's policies have added fuel to the fire and now Al Qaeda are stronger than ever and will continue to grow as long as the US romp around the Middle East pretending they're playing a shoot em' up computer game. Now the CIA believes Iraq will provide even more recruits to Al Qaeda than Afghanistan did in the 1980s-90s. They've also been gained a strong political foothold in a country where they has little or no influence prior to the US invasion.So, if anything, Al Qaeda are grateful to Dubya and company for their political influence and thousands of new recruits - none of which they could possibly have gained without Dubya's policies.Al Qaeda have now successfully crossed the threshold from being a radical fringe group, to a strong, tactile and almost mainstream organisation - all in ways that they couldn't possibly have engineered on their own.

(b) Though the "they're all evil and want to destroy our freedom" rhetoric might be convenient to your cause, it's incredibly simplistic and could only be believed by a Bush supporter who watches Fox News (get yourself a copy of Outfoxed and then tell me it's a credible source of information).People don't just blow themselves up because of Al Qaeda propaganda, but because they combine and reconcile the propaganda with what they actually see on the ground - a superpower romping around various countries blowing up everything and everyone in sight, *including* civilians who are just as innocent as the people who died in the Twin Towers. The only difference being that far, far, more innocent Muslims have been killed.The solution doesn't lie in terrorism of course, but US activity in Iraq has greatly helped Al Qaeda to convince a small but significant minority of Muslims that it is a just course of action.

(b) Al Qaeda are stronger than ever as a result of Dubya's policies. There were few Iraqis involved in Al Quaeda prior to the US invasion, but now thousands of Iraqi Sunni Muslims are signing up, combined with the continuous flow of fresh foreign recruits who feel the US invasion of Iraq has made Bin Laden & co appear to have been right all along.

(c) You're naive to think Iraq has anything to do with fighting terrorism. It was clear to just about every worthy political commentator and intelligence agency that invading Iraq could only make the problem worse, but still Bush and his cohorts persisted. Why? Because the war was more to do with gaining oil and influence in the region, with the added bonus that the situation also provided some nice kickbacks for companies close to the administration.

(d) I still maintain that anyone who believes God speaks to them and advises them in person is clearly insane, whether they're Osama Bin Laden, Mark Chapman, or George W. Bush.

(e) Iraq wouldn't be the first democracy in the Islamic world and I'm shocked you think it is. I'll let you do your own research on this one, as it just might lead you to reading a book or two on the subject.

(f) My solution would be to fight the terrorists without killing thousands of innocent civilians, without causing bitterly sectarian civil wars and without strengthening Al Qaeda.Tactics which favoured brains over brawn would help to achieve these objectives. If Bush had put the same billions spent on the war in Iraq into intelligence gathering, infiltration and even shooting of individual terrorists, the US would be in a far stronger and safer position than it is today.

(g) There is no rule that suggests freedom has to be paid for in blood, and the only people who propagate such myths are those who have an interest in motivating thousands of young men and women to sacrifice their lives in the name of "freedom". When in fact their lives have been cruelly squandered on behalf of a small clique of vested interests. Poor sods. "
6:51 AM

First, I just want to say "Thanks" to Noing for just being who he is and for just taking the time to respond to my comments. I sincerely believe that he is still suffering from the Elitist hogwash taught in most American Liberal Plantations...the universities.

Now to say that Al Qaeda is now stronger than ever is clearly a matter of who is doing the reporting/ For every report of Al Qaeda being strengthened, I can find you one for substantial victory against them, that is culturally, economically and militarily. But I think the proof is in the pudding, they have yet to make a successful attack here on U.S. soil since 9/11. If they have gathered in Iraq, then I would call that a suuccessful victory as well since we can fight them there. I make no apologies for this because we accomplish two things 1. Secure a democratic Iraq and 2. We keep you and your family safe from attack while shopping at the local Wal-Mart.

Yes, to say that "They're all evil and want to destroy our freedom" is very simplistic, why do you insist on making it so complicated? I know the reality lies somewhere in the middle and that is still too dangerous to allow to go unchecked. Not all Muslims hate America, but a great portion of them do dislike us and maybe with good reason, but the level of violence used to bring this dislike to the fore is totally unnacceptable. I truly believe that if the Islamic community refuses to condemn the terrorist activities against innocent civilians, Christian, Muslim and Jew, then they are just as culpable and are actually condoning such acts. Furthermore, just because a nutty group of individuals gets together and believes that they are fighting for a just cause, it doesn't mean that we give them a pass. No way! Hell No!

I believe that the War for Oil theory and for multinational profits is shallow and actually unworthy of consideration and discussion. That is, allow me to use your own words, way too simplistic. Hell, we could go and take over every oil producing country on the planet, but it would not do a bit of good since, thanks to evnironmentalist tree huggers, we haven't built a new oil refinery in over thirty years and are now at max production as it is.

If the good lord decides to speak to someone, who are you to determine that such a person is insane? He clearly doesn't speak to you since you obviously don't believe in him. But on the day of judgement I can assure you that you will be one of the first in line begging for forgiveness. Just because you don't believe doesn't make it untrue.

No research is necessary for Islamic democracies, I know far too well that Pakistan, Turkey, Indonesia and Afghanistan are democracies. But establishing one so close to the heart of radical Islam is a key goal in the war on terror. The people in the surrounding countries, i.e. Syria and Iran, will be able to see first hand that freedom is preferable to the human condition than despotism and fundamentalism.

Your solution for fighting terrorism with intelligence and assassination is still flawed. Israel, under differesnt government administrations has tried to do just that and failed miserably. If not for the U.S. keeping them on a short leash, both Syria and Lebanon would likely be less of a thereat than they have been over the last twenty years. Thank goodness Lebanon has recognized the benefit of self governance and started kicking out Syrian troublemakers. This also was likely due to the U.S. invasion of Iraq, because with the American forces near their borders, Syria couldn't afford to be distracted by the events happening to their assets in Lebanon and decided to beef up their own forces along the border in case of U.S. invasion of their country. Didn't even consider that one didja?

Finally, if you can review history and find any incidents where the rulong class just turned over power to the people, by all means, please enlighten me. Freedom has always had a cost of blood and to believe otherwise is a pipedream. History has taught us this. We can aspire to improve on the lessons learned, but when you are dealing with third world medieval mentalities, the likelihood of applying new concepts is a stretch because they still believe in "an eye for an eye."

Oh, by the way, I hear that FOXNews is a very good news network, as a matter of fact I believe that i read that they are the No.1 cable news network on planet. I wouldn't know since I refuse to buy cable...I just don't have the time. But if you think that this is just FOX regurgitation, I suggest that you get in a car and just travel America, to the places where real people live. Not the phoney baloney, hip hop, MTV watching crowds who are searching for thier identities well beyond menopause.